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No rules when contesting????????

Sep 18th 2011, 03:49

w3jkc

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
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I want to know why they feel it is ok to contest anywhere they please and cause interference to other stations. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 3 KHZ RULE?????
Sep 20th 2011, 12:10

N0NB

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
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Total Posts: 0
What 3 kHz rule?

I think that's a fallacy made up by various hams who regard the slightest hint of another station's signal in their passband as "intentional" QRM. There is no "3 kHz rule" in contest rules nor in Part 97 nor in international treaty.

A couple of points to ponder. The ionosphere is a dynamic medium and signals that were inaudible will suddenly appear as though they just QSY'ed to QRM just you! In fact, he was there all along, you just couldn't hear each other. Perhaps you didn't say anything when he asked if the frequency was in use. Mostly likely he has much better filtering in his receiver and didn't hear your answer or subsequent grousing.

I've always been amused by the crowd that buys some high-end radio, then sits on the same 75m frequency every night griping about anyone who dares to transmit within +- 5 kHz. Any suggestion that they use the QRM fighting features of their transceiver falls on deaf ears. They also complain loudly about "intentional" QRM and then go on a mission to "run off the QRMers" and, in fact, then do engage in intentional QRM themselves. Sorry, but they get no sympathy from me.

Contests are time limited events lasting, at most, 48 hours and more often much less. They almost always occur on weekends and the engaged op will know when they come up on the calender and plan accordingly.

73, de Nate >>

http://www.n0nb.us
Sep 21st 2011, 14:07

W1RFIAdmin

Joined: Jul 25th 2011, 14:25
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In my experience, contests have a mix of unintentional, irresponsible and intentional QRM. There are many a time when I have been in a ragchew on a contest weekend and suddenly, some contester jumps on frequency and starts calling CQ contest. Probably irresponsible, as if I work him just to find out if he hears me, he generally hears me just fine. He may have heard me just fine, but figured that I was not very strong, so he could just take over.

That's the dark side of contesting.

On the twilight side, in most cases, the contests start long before the Whoop and Holler Gang usually gathers at night, so if the contesters are there first, it is the contester, not the Whooper, that has a "right" to the frequency.

And in a contest, there are a LOT of people trying to operate at the same time, and they will crowd each other quite a bit. When my local park has a special event, the normal solitude and quiet I enjoy, with a few peoole using the park, is changed. I either accept that and participate in the event, or go to a different park with no event, or decide that this is not a good weekend for a park.

On the positive side, contests are an excellent way to make new contacts for awards, or just for the accomplishment. For the CW 'tests, they are a great way to increase your code speed.

And, of course, by design, most major contests do not operate on 30m, 17m or 12m, so there are almost always bands that you can go do that do not have people contesting.

73.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab
Sep 28th 2011, 00:47

K3TN

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Hi, Ed - no doubt there are inconsiderate contesters. But there are just as many inconsiderate rag chewers who run power when they don't need to, overmodulate and splatter and feel that they "own" certain frequencies.

There are inconsiderate SSTV operators who seem to feel they own certain frequencies and it is OK to start sending on top of someone using that frequency.

There are inconsiderate DXers, county hunters, etc - about the only ones I can't think of having some level of inconsiderate operators are QRPers, but that may just be because they aren't loud enough to bother anyone!
Oct 31st 2011, 22:19

w3jkc

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
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Total Posts: 0
We were all on 3.806 this week end and not one contester asked if the frequency was in use. The bottom line is they don't care.
Nov 15th 2011, 18:16

jgortney

Joined: Jun 24th 2011, 20:50
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Total Posts: 0
I am in no way condoning intentional interference, but if another station is causing QRM on my QSO it is my job to work arround it. Here is why I feel this way.

During an emergency where our communications skills could be called into use we do not have the luxury to demand a "clear" QRM free frequency. We must be able to work with what we have at hand and get the message through as quickly as we can. Lives could be depending on us for that service.

I think the 3khz rule the OP was refering to is what is taught when you study to get your General license. I just passed General a few weeks ago and I used Gordon West's study material. On his audiobook he teaches that a SSB signal occupies about 3khz of bandwidth and to not interfere with another QSO, or accidently operate out of band be mindful of that 3khz. For example, since I am just a General, my SSB privledges at 80m start at 3.800 but I make sure before I ever key the mic i am at 3.803 or higher so I do not violate the band plan.
Feb 10th 2012, 23:29

NY4JB

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
I participate with many of the different 'camps' on HF: worked-all-states type nets, DX, contesting, etc. and what I find funny is that during a contest, when it's possible to work all states in a single day or night, there will be a small group on the net frequency struggling to make a few contacts all the while having to defend the frequency from the many who do ask "is the frequency in use?" Why not spin the dial and give out a few Qs in the contest?

There are of course some that don’t ask and times when the person calling CQ test can’t be heard but those working them can but I’ve worked stations that were only 500 hertz apart during (SSB) contests, it isn’t armchair copy but with practice it isn’t hard. As for the old timers who run power and camp on the same frequency every night, who am I to judge how much power they need to hear each other? When you get older your hearing fades fast and even 30 over is sometimes barely over the noise on 75 meters.

Finally, during contests we actually use our bands and they are empty too often. The park analogy fits, if the park doesn’t get used it will soon be made into something else that does.
73
Mar 3rd 2012, 20:57

N9HTZ

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Quote by W1RFIAdmin
In my experience, contests have a mix of unintentional, irresponsible and intentional QRM. There are many a time when I have been in a ragchew on a contest weekend and suddenly, some contester jumps on frequency and starts calling CQ contest. Probably irresponsible, as if I work him just to find out if he hears me, he generally hears me just fine. He may have heard me just fine, but figured that I was not very strong, so he could just take over.

That's the dark side of contesting.

On the twilight side, in most cases, the contests start long before the Whoop and Holler Gang usually gathers at night, so if the contesters are there first, it is the contester, not the Whooper, that has a "right" to the frequency.

And in a contest, there are a LOT of people trying to operate at the same time, and they will crowd each other quite a bit. When my local park has a special event, the normal solitude and quiet I enjoy, with a few peoole using the park, is changed. I either accept that and participate in the event, or go to a different park with no event, or decide that this is not a good weekend for a park.

On the positive side, contests are an excellent way to make new contacts for awards, or just for the accomplishment. For the CW 'tests, they are a great way to increase your code speed.

And, of course, by design, most major contests do not operate on 30m, 17m or 12m, so there are almost always bands that you can go do that do not have people contesting.

73.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab


I would like to know if the ARRL plans to give out awards to the LIDS on 17M that parked on top of the today's OMISS net that was in progress and kept right on going even after they were told that the frequency was in use?

Contestors like these are no different than intentional QRMers.
Jan 7th 2013, 20:25

KB3LIX

Joined: Jun 24th 2004, 09:37
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Quote by N9HTZ
Quote by W1RFIAdmin
In my experience, contests have a mix of unintentional, irresponsible and intentional QRM. There are many a time when I have been in a ragchew on a contest weekend and suddenly, some contester jumps on frequency and starts calling CQ contest. Probably irresponsible, as if I work him just to find out if he hears me, he generally hears me just fine. He may have heard me just fine, but figured that I was not very strong, so he could just take over.

That's the dark side of contesting.

On the twilight side, in most cases, the contests start long before the Whoop and Holler Gang usually gathers at night, so if the contesters are there first, it is the contester, not the Whooper, that has a "right" to the frequency.

And in a contest, there are a LOT of people trying to operate at the same time, and they will crowd each other quite a bit. When my local park has a special event, the normal solitude and quiet I enjoy, with a few peoole using the park, is changed. I either accept that and participate in the event, or go to a different park with no event, or decide that this is not a good weekend for a park.

On the positive side, contests are an excellent way to make new contacts for awards, or just for the accomplishment. For the CW 'tests, they are a great way to increase your code speed.

And, of course, by design, most major contests do not operate on 30m, 17m or 12m, so there are almost always bands that you can go do that do not have people contesting.

73.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab


I would like to know if the ARRL plans to give out awards to the LIDS on 17M that parked on top of the today's OMISS net that was in progress and kept right on going even after they were told that the frequency was in use?

Contestors like these are no different than intentional QRMers.


There is NO CONTEST activity on 12, 17 30 & 60 meters.
I do not know what you THINK you heard, but it was NOT a contest.
Maybe a group decided to pull your collective "chains" and simulate a contest on 17.
Jan 8th 2013, 01:59

AI4BJ

Joined: Sep 2nd 2003, 12:14
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
This isn't the first time that I've heard someone complain about unruly "contesters" on 17M. I think a surprising number of hams can't tell the difference between a DX pileup and a contest!
Feb 6th 2013, 12:33

N0AZZ

Joined: May 29th 2007, 11:03
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Quote by AI4BJ
This isn't the first time that I've heard someone complain about unruly "contesters" on 17M. I think a surprising number of hams can't tell the difference between a DX pileup and a contest!


Yes some don't have a clue and hate DX and contests.

As far as 3 Khz rule all I can say is that is what filters are for I use mine all the time. You do have filters don't you?

Fred/N0AZZ
Aug 2nd 2013, 14:06

KG5VK

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Simply put N9HTZ has an attitude issue
with anyone in our hobby that is Not either a county hunter or an OMIS member After all he has been lic. since 1988
So he knows it all and can not be convinced that what he heard on 17m was something other than what he says it was.
I am a contest OP, I served in the USAF and retired from it
I also volunteered and served as a civilian liaison for the USCG during the post Katrina aftermath at Bell Chase NAS
and my contesting experience was a very big asset to getting coordinates to the rescue desk for people that needed assistance.
When the bands get crowded use it as a reason to adapt and learn new methods that will work - Is the a reason your net does not have alternate band plans ???
Have you ever heard of someone asking if the freq is in use and no heard them, so they started calling CQ ?
I have asked many times, heard no reply then suddenly a bunch of mad net ops show their colors and say the freq is in use - Instead of
saying I asked I simply move the VFO knob 3 - 4 kc and try again
If your still hearing me 4 kc away - you either have you NB on, your filter wide open and your antenna pointed right at me
There IS room in our hobby for all of us, IF we have some compassion and ability under our thick skin to share.
Of course you are welcome to continue to only see things Your way!
By the way if there is an Emergency during crowded band conditions - State so plane and clearly you will find you have plenty of people that will shut up, listen and help when asked.
I know as I have seen it work.

Cheers!
Steve
KG5VK
Aug 19th 2013, 12:07

N9HTZ

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Quote by KG5VK
Simply put N9HTZ has an attitude issue
with anyone in our hobby that is Not either a county hunter or an OMIS member After all he has been lic. since 1988
So he knows it all and can not be convinced that what he heard on 17m was something other than what he says it was.
I am a contest OP, I served in the USAF and retired from it
I also volunteered and served as a civilian liaison for the USCG during the post Katrina aftermath at Bell Chase NAS
and my contesting experience was a very big asset to getting coordinates to the rescue desk for people that needed assistance.
When the bands get crowded use it as a reason to adapt and learn new methods that will work - Is the a reason your net does not have alternate band plans ???
Have you ever heard of someone asking if the freq is in use and no heard them, so they started calling CQ ?
I have asked many times, heard no reply then suddenly a bunch of mad net ops show their colors and say the freq is in use - Instead of
saying I asked I simply move the VFO knob 3 - 4 kc and try again
If your still hearing me 4 kc away - you either have you NB on, your filter wide open and your antenna pointed right at me
There IS room in our hobby for all of us, IF we have some compassion and ability under our thick skin to share.
Of course you are welcome to continue to only see things Your way!
By the way if there is an Emergency during crowded band conditions - State so plane and clearly you will find you have plenty of people that will shut up, listen and help when asked.
I know as I have seen it work.

Cheers!
Steve
KG5VK


Sir, I don't appreciate being called a liar. When people came on 17M calling "CQ Contest, CQ Contest, CQ Contest" right on top of a net that was in progress and gives a US call sign, it is not mistaken DX either. When people calling "CQ Contest" then start crowding in on either side by 0.5 to 1.0 kc, that is definitely intentional. Intentional QRM is against FCC rules. And YES, this did occur on 17M. the OMISS group goes out of their way to avoid causing or receiving QRM. When they started their net, the frequency was clear. When the contesters started moving in as I described, they searched for a clear frequency in which to move. But, guess what, The 17M band was already full of contesters. There was no clear frequency. They tried to continue their net. When the contesters kept crowding even more, they had to call it a day. But, what do I know, I've already been branded to be a lying know-it-all by real tough guys sitting behind keyboards.

I could be so arrogant as to go on and say so many unsubstantiated ASSumptions about you as you and others did about me but, I will not do that. In fact, I appreciate your service to this country. I never stated that there is no purpose room for contesting in this hobby. I merely stated an actual occurrence on 17M and then was branded in many incorrect ways for doing so. This only adds to the general belief that contesters tend to be very rude and think that they own the bands on contest weekends.

I made my original post last year. This year, I haven't heard nearly as much contesting on 17M. Most hams know that contesting isn't officially applies to 17M. Perhaps, the ARRL and other responsible contesters have informed other hams well. On contest weekends, I usually hang on 17, 15, and 12 M and find some good US and DX contacts who are doing the same--avoiding the crazy and rude contesters.

The reaction to my posting of the truth in this thread speaks volumes. I thank you all for letting my know just how rude contesters really are.

The general courtesies are:

1.First come, first serve so far as obtaining a frequency on which to operate.

2. Don't crowd in on a QSO closer than 3 kc. With the filtering available in most radios to day that could be 2 kc.

3. Don't start calling CQ on top of a QSO in progress and move to another frequency when ask to do so by participants of that QSO. (I believe that refusing to do this one actually violates FCC policy/law)
Aug 23rd 2013, 15:02

N1TA

Joined: Nov 9th 2000, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
If you hear contest activity on 12, 17, or 30, please report it to the contest sponsor (note that this is not always the ARRL, although we do sponsor quite a few of them).

OK, I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. Thanks for your input everyone. Now go play radio!

73,
Mike N1TA
Contest Branch Manager

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