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Yaesu's new digital hand held

Oct 27th 2012, 07:07

WA3FKG

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Has anyone taken the plunge yet and purchased one of the new digital hand held units from Yaesu? If so what kind of data rates are you getting on 2-meters? I have not yet decided to move into the digital arena on VHF/UHF even though D-Star has some attractive points to it.
Oct 13th 2013, 23:28

N2MWE

Joined: Jun 8th 2010, 21:49
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Total Posts: 0
Yaesu has now become yet another proprietary digital radio, not compatible with D Star, P25, TRBO, or Alinco. Sooner or later there is going to have to be a standard.
Jan 19th, 02:43

KC6N

Joined: Jan 18th, 21:14
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Yaesu Fusion does have one nice advantage in that the repeaters act like FM repeaters (in fact ARE FM repeaters) for FM users so they are dual purpose. They repeat FM when someone comes in on FM and they repeat C4FM when someone comes in "Yeasu Fusion". I think they see it as a better route for migration to digital for hams than DSTAR. FWIW, I have the FT1-DR Yaesu walkie and a Vertex Standard VXD-720 DMR radio And like DMR better. Not a lot of folks on Fusion yet.

DMR has a huge network and radios can be had for $180 (Connect Systems CS-700) and even cheaper ($150 if you don't mind ordering a Hytera radio from China via e-bay). Google DMR-MARC. Search for DMR in your state.

Fusion may be quite nice once it takes off. Yaesu is trying really hard. They are giving the repeaters away to clubs for $500. There are a couple of guys out here (San Diego, CA) who are fiddling with the WIRES thing and Fusion who have it working sort of like DSTAR and DMR but they have a lot of catching up to do.

Dave
KC6N
Jan 19th, 04:09

WA9WVX

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
I think you people should remember when YAESU was bought out by Motorola. Well Motorola developed the Astro P25 Digital Mode and their repeaters were Quantars which could be set up in a Transparent mode so signals being detected as Analog FM would repeat as Analog FM or if the detected signal was Astro Digital, it would repeat as Astro Digital. When the people of YAESU broke away from Motorola with the Amateur Radio Products and returned to Japan, their engineers just duplicated the Motorola format for Fusion. Actually all Motorola wanted was the Yaesu and the Standard Commercial Land Mobile Radio Product line, they didn't care about the Amateur Radio Products as it was just something they got in the business deal. Fusion is nothing more than the FDMA Digital format. I'm waiting for some company to develop a multi-digital mode format that can do D-Star, Astro / Fusion, MotoTrbo and CDMA, I think it's just a matter software and time to develop such a transceiver.

Dan
WA9WVX
Jan 19th, 05:04

KC6N

Joined: Jan 18th, 21:14
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Start following Connect Systems then. They are threatening to make exactly what you describe. Supposedly the initial incarnation will be DSTAR + ETSI compliment DMR. Nobody is doing CDMA that I am aware of.

You probably know that Fusion is not P25 comparable -- It is interesting that when I was at an event at HRO a few weeks back and I asked the Yaesu rep why they did their own thing and didn't release something that followed one of the established standards, he said they decided to follow P25, but Fusion radios are not compatible with that standard. Too bad really, I think that they could have been money ahead by doing that. Another interesting thing is that the repeaters that they are selling for $500 aren’t holding up well. There are at least 5 of them in the San Diego area (lots of clubs have pulled out old Micor/Mitrek based machines and dropped these things in only to have them go kaput in a couple months. The TX PA’s seem prone to failure. Moral is just set the old repeater aside, you may need it again.
Jan 19th, 16:02

WA9WVX

Joined: Apr 4th 1998, 00:00
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Total Posts: 0
Great ... repeaters that die within 3 months, Yaesu's engineering team sure didn't do the homework on that design. Also seems strange that the repeater owners haven't tried to slip in a Henry continuous duty power amplifier to evaluate the system using that method. I wasn't aware that the Astro & Fusion aren't compatible but it may come down to using Motorola's technology and possible lawsuits involved over patent rights. It would also be interesting to test a pair of Fusion units using a Quantar repeater to see if the digital signals would pass on through. About the only thing that might stop the digital signaling would be the digital PL signaling codes (not DPL) as they are different. I remember reading on BatLabs where there was a company that could modify a MSF5000 to pass the Astro digital signaling. They were doing it for the State of Wisconsin maybe 8 or 10 years ago but I never heard what they found out by doing this modification.

Interesting that here in the U.S. our FCC determined to information the U.S. manufactures to design around a format that prevented more than one digital signal from passing through RF / IF stages to the receiver's audio stage and this holds true for digital TV reception too. If more than one signal is detected, nothing gets through to video or audio stages and if you happen to be near high power tension lines, they generate noise, the human ear using Analog can pick out the recovered audio whereas when you're using Digital the receiver is unable to differentiate whether the signal is digital or noise and stops anything from passing through to the audio stage.

Whereas in Europe, they devised a method to pass multiple signals through the receivers so the human could attempt to decipher the information. There's always some kind of a trade off when going from Analog to Digital especially when dealing with multipath as the 1s and 0s begin to flip too many times even with forward correcting digits and eventually the audio signal is garbled beyond use. On the other hand, when switching between Analog and Digital, the Analog signaling starts to develop picket fencing and eventually drops out, switching to Digital the recovered signal is 100% and it's been determined that using a higher gain antenna on a mobile will cause multipath conditions whereas using a 1/4 wave is much better. This even holds true for base station applications, less gain equals out to less multipath and the umbrella effect. I believe Digital is our future although many in the Amateur Radio community are fighting it tooth and nail much like when the hams started switching between AM to SSB, it took a little time but eventually 98% of the ham population use SSB on HF.

As far as the CDMA format, it runs circles around FDMA, TDMA and MFSK (D-Star) as it has the ability to detect signals further down into the noise, much like PSK-31 versus JT-65. All of these Digital technologies have been around for 50~60 years as I have a copy of the IEEE Radio Handbook and they are all described in that refertence book.

Dan
WA9WVX
Jan 20th, 16:28

KC6N

Joined: Jan 18th, 21:14
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 0
Yea those Yaesu $500 repeaters haven't proven too reliable around here anyway.

As for the compatibility with P25, The FSK tones for the three of the C4FM variants are (di-bit/CarrierOffset):

DMR: 01/+1944 kHz, 00/+648 kHz, 10/-648 kHz, 11/-1944 kHz
P25: 01/+1800 kHz, 00/+600 kHz, 10/-600 kHz, 11/-1800 kHz
Fusion: 01/+2700 kHz, 00/+900 kHz, 10/-900 kHz, 11/-2700 kHz

You can see that the DMR and P25 are pretty narrow by comparison to Fusion. From a modulation perspective, DMR and Fusion are probably compatible, although the packet structure is completely different so they can't talk. Fusion has the same problem with packet structure but also the deviation is quite a bit higher. Although these are all essentially C4FM, the "FM" part is different for all of them (and dramatically different in the case of Yaesu Fusion). A P25 receiver confronted with a Fusion signal would probably consider it over-deviated, although depending on how the baseband processor is designed, it might be able to AGC it down -- but the packet structure is still different.

One thing that Yaesu got right is that they decided to use the call sign as the radio ID. Sadly, DMR didn't allow an alphanumeric field for the radio ID so we are stuck with those "phone numbers" and a contact list. It works fine but could have been nicer. Oh well, it wasn't designed with hams in mind.

I don't know much about DSTAR, never used it but I think it addresses some of these things as well.

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